Petraeus should get an apology from Clinton (and Obama too)
McCain, Clinton and Obama set to question Petraeus and Crocker
McCain brings another asset into the hearing in the form of Senator Lindsey Graham. As his chief surrogate, Graham is Robin to McCain’s Batman. No one else is more in sync with the Arizona senator on Iraq. During the hearing, Graham can easily use his time during questioning to elaborate a McCain point or address another point McCain may have left out.
McCain also has Sen. Joe Lieberman to carry his torch in the Armed Services hearing. He’s an independent who votes with the Democrats on virtually every issue but the Iraq war.
Together they turn Washington in to Gotham City. McCain and Graham are the Caped Crusaders, with Lieberman filling in as Commissioner Gordon — he may not be a full-fledged Republican crime fighter, but he’s certainly a strong supporter of the cause.
Gen. Petraeus has done an absolutely outstanding job in Iraq and all sides in the Iraq debate should stop to give him due thanks as he reports back to Washington. No one, including the most ardent of Iraq hawks, believed that the fairly small size of the surge, and the new tactics wielded with it, would have such an amazing turn around on ground in Iraq as they have. McCain, DFV, and many of us have bewailed the fact that this was not implemented two years ago. If one man has been the most dead on correct on this issue it has been Sen. McCain. You can feel free to disagree with him on whatever you want to but there is no denying the fact that if the ‘McCain surge’ had been implemented two years ago with Petraeus at its head, we probably wouldn’t be talking about ‘the War’ in anything besides a historical context.
It was Shrillary herself who said that it would take a ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ to believe that the surge would be successful and took a few cheap shots at the General hoping to score a few political points. The last time the general was ‘in town’ Hillary called effectively called him a liar and MoveOn.org called him a traitor. That says everything you need to know about the mettle and mentality of those who happily dwell in the deepest, darkest and slimiest parts of the political landscape. I eagerly await her apology tomorrow as well as from others sitting on the various committees. If she had the slightest shred of integrity that woud be the first thing she would offer when she finally had the opportunity to address the General. Unfortunately, I probably await in vain.
Dave - the Infidel Sage
gurusteve
E the Wise
Andre the Defiant
pg - your humble messenger
hairybeast
thompaine
The American and Iraqi people as well as the rest of the world should get an apology from Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield for taking us into Iraq, then all three should be tried for war crimes.
and before the flaming begins, while I was in Europe the news showed the surge in a very positive light, something you never see on the US news. I was really impressed with the footage they showed.
I’m glad things are getting better, but he bottom line is we should not have gone in the first place.
Still waiting on my apology from the named parties.
Methinks it’s about to get ugly around here. If it makes you feel better Jeff I agree with you except perhaps for the war crimes part so at least we will get lambasted together.
I’m not sure why anybody should apologize for taking out the Butcher of Baghdad and his henchmen. The apology from Bush should be for not better managing the war and for not ignoring the protestations of the opposition party and implementing a massive surge two or three years ago.
Dave, it was not our place to take out the “Butcher” we helped arm to fight his petty war with Iran and kill his own people. He was no threat to us. That fact has been stated many times by many intelligence groups foreign and domestic.
It was as much our place as it was to oust the govts of Panama or Grenada, or to drive Saddam from Kuwait, or to help the Afghan rebels defeat the Russians or to topple the Taliban.
Afghanistan and Kuwait were invaded by foriegn agressors. That is not the same situation. In general each and every war is a unique situation in and of itself. I’m sorry but I just cannot accept comparisons of one war to another. They are all unique.
We can argue in circles about Iraq supporting terror but I jsut do not believe that was the case. I’m a little tired of having that discussion but in all fairness I did bring it up so feel free to respond.
It was not our place to interfere with any of these governments. Show me one place in our Constitution or foreign doctrines where it asserts it is our duty or right to insert ourselves into he position of saying which govts are good or bad and removing the ones we disagree with.
In many cases we would be much better served minding our own business. Iraq was one such case.
Thom - I agree to not get bogged down in this discussion again. Good call.
Mr. Drowning Creek, at least you are consistent with your argument. That has always been the controversy about being a Superpower. Do you just sit on your hands and watch the world go by (classic isolationism) or do you use your strength to occasionally liberate peoples and smash rogue regimes? There are a few million South Koreans that appreciate the fact that they haven’t spent close to a half a centurey starving to death or rotting in gulags like their northern neighbors.
In the wars since 9-11 some 60 million people have been liberated from two extremely oppressive totalitarian regimes that have been directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and the cruel suppression of entire peoples. To give these nations a chance to have a respectable, representative government and not be destabilizing, anti-American collaborators with the worst of the worst of international murders and terrorists might be worth a shot. It is one thing to argue whether these wars have been prosecuted poorly, it is quite another to state that they should never have been fought.
“And for those who are knowledgeable of the ultimate results of that migration of entire peoples into the Roman Empire the understanding that history is repeating itself should be cause for concern.”
From the statement above from the immigration post, Dave, you have touched on the path of the Roman Empire that led to it’s demise. May I also suggest you look at the mistakes of spreading Rome’s military resources too far and wide maintaining an empire that also mirrors America’s current situation.
I am not a total “isolationist”, but as an educated person who tries to learn from the past, as you also seem to be, I try to learn from history and not repeat mistakes that have been made before. America has not done that. We have allowed uncontrolled immigration via Mexico, widespread military campaigns and occupations, the devaluing of currency and corrupt leadership (in both parties) to set us up for the same fate as Rome. The similarities are unnerving and it should make us pay attention to the past as a guide for the future, yet we persist in thinking we are different. I beg to differ.
If we were attacked by a powerful entity such as China or Russia right now it would cripple this country. Our military would be stretched to the breaking point and our fragile economy would collapse. We would survive, I have no doubt, but in what form would the post war society take shape? Rome suffered that fate and I fear we will also.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We are doing just that.
I wished I could crawl in a time machine and move forward 200 years in the future. I bet the United States will resemble something far different than today.
I will agree to let you have the last word.
I liked this line: “I wished I could crawl in a time machine and move forward 200 years in the future. I bet the United States will resemble something far different than today.” How true is that!?
Dave it appears you are as sick of arguing your side of this debate as I am mine. I have resigned myself to the fact that the point is moot now. If you wish to engage me about where we should go from here I will gladly put in my two cents but we are in Iraq now and that is that.
Suffice it to say that drowning creek voiced views that are very similar to mine. If you could take a time machine 200 years into the future it would be fun to have you moderate out little debates. “uhhh no sorry you’re wrong global warming is caused by the crab people from the Galgamec galaxy.”
Let me say. I do want us to succeed in Iraq, if that is possible, and make it democratic ran by free thinking Iraqi people. Unfortunately, history is not on our side. I wished it was different, but each empire has a lifespan. Ours will be no different.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, just being a history guided realist.
Congrats to Patreaus, and I mean that. I honestly hope he can lead us through this. He seems to be heading in the right direction. The real lynch pin and wildcard is Sadar. If the General can handle him and contain his militias, we just might see a stabilization of the country.
He seems very capable and I can’t honestly think within my limited military knowledge of anyone else more capable to take on this task.
You’re both lucky PG isn’t around yet today. There’s a reason I stopped fighting this battle.
But in my opinion, uninformed and ignorant though it might be, the war was a huge mistake. Of course, in the immortal words of Slim Charles, “It’s what war is. Once you in it, you in it. If it’s a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we have to fight.” Yes, the world is better off without Saddam. Yes, the world is safer without Saddam. But it is impossible to know whether the world is safer now than it would have been without starting the war. It also remains to be seen whether the surge has actually brought peace or not. Or what the opportunity cost will be.
Well like I said Wes I just don’t care to have this debate anymore myself. It’s all been said. I agree to diagree with certain people.
AHHHH, you guys missed me! I am touched.
thom I tried to save your George Will post without having it appear on the site. I was not successful. I think when you do save a draft you should not mark it private. Just make sure you have unpublished marked the first time you save it.
Thanks PG I’ll give that a shot.
Talk about your epiphanic moments! I guess I am guilty of not going with my gut feeling based on educated impressions derived from things I heard, instead of rationally approaching things based on research. This hubristic method of mine has blinded me to the obvious.
Now the evil gang of three explanation of: Cheney and Rumsfeld manipulating GWB into invading Iraq to show he was a man to his father makes sense to me. There by getting Iraq for their oil buddies, sure that’s the ticket.
The most obvious explanation is always the best after all. Human foibles, excesses, dishonesty and greed are invariably what underlie things. Hemingway’s character Bill Gorton in The Sun Also Rises was talking about that when he offered…
I truly wish I could take credit for that little thought, but alas it belongs to this guy.
You know of course on the other hand I could be wrong. I am just saying…
At this risk of wading back into a debate which I don’t wish to have I don’t buy into the insane conspiracy theory BS to which PG is referring but man have I heard my share of it! I think the war was ill advised and I think Bush used the patriotic fervor after 9/11 to do something which he probably wanted to do anyway. He just took advantage of an opportunity. 9/11 wasn’t concoted by the Bush administration, there weren’t explosives in the building or missles fired at it or whatever the latest crackpot theory is.
Regarding the war as I said before I give up on the debate over whether we should have gone in. I don’t think we should have but we did, end of discussion. I agree with drowning pool’s sentiment that I truly hope that things cool off in Iraq and they become a model democracy and have the best quality of life in the middle east. I don’t want to be proven right at the expense of more American and Iraqi lives.
So that will be the last I will say on the matter if you all don’t mind. I think I said that before but this time I mena it. I’m pretty sure…..
Oh yeah and who lent PG the tinfoil hat?
OK OK just onw more thing. Watch this youtube video which proves that there wasn’t a 9/11 conspiracy….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0